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I've been flipping back and forth for years, because I thought that the bible showed support for both views. I based this on my mistaken interpretation of this verse:

"29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 8

I thought that this meant that God had predestined those who are now saved to being saved, but it doesn't say that at all. It says that he knew (foreknew) who would accept Him, and predestined those people to be conformed to the image of His son. In other words, it was our sanctification which was predestined, NOT our salvation, which is entirely based on our choice to believe in Jesus or not to believe.

Calvinism teaches the utter depravity of man, which means that we are so depraved as to be unable to even make this choice unless God regenerates our spirits first, which He does ONLY for those which He has chosen to be saved. In other words, we are born again BEFORE we believe, and are only able to believe IF God permits it.

Now, some of this has support. The bible tells us that we didn't choose God, but that He chose us, and that faith comes from God, not from us.

Where I differ from the calvinst view is that I believe that God offers his salvation FREELY to ALL, that ALL MEN are drawn to Christ, and that He has given enough light to ALL MEN sufficient to make a choice. I base this on the scripture which states that if Christ is lifted up, He will draw ALL MEN to Himself.

My conclusion also springs from my understanding of the nature of God who desires that all should come to Him and that NONE should perish.

When I play calvinism out to its logical conclusion, I find a God who on the one hand offers salvation to anyone who believes in Christ, knowing that nobody has the power to believe, empowers a select few to believe, and sends everyone else to hell for not believing, knowing full well they can't believe unless he gives them the power to, but with-holds that power. It would be akin to me placing a bottle of water just out of reach of a paralyzed man who is dying of thirst, then, when that man dies, shrugging my shoulders and blaming the paralyzed man for not drinking the water which I freely gave. What kind of twisted, sinister person would I be? Am I willing to worship such a God?

Thankfully, this is not the God which I know.

the past few months theres a real blog war going on over Calvinism verses Arminianism. Its gotten not only heated but nasty.

I didn't know that, Juanita. I definitely don't want to get involved in a war.

My conviction came after spending a weekend with a good pastor friend who is a calvinist, ironically. I knew he was reformed, and that the issue would come up, and had been wrestling with the whole thing in my mind. Before even meeting with him, I had already conceded to myself that calvin was correct that nobody can come to God unless God draws them, and I had decided that the only logical way that arminianism could be correct is if God draws everybody, but wasn't sure if the bible taught that.

During our weekend, as he would talk about calvinism, it kept going through my head that this is not the God I've come to know and love. He was describing a god I didn't know at all.

On the ride home, I suddenly remembered the scripture where Christ said that if He were lifted up, He would draw all men to Himself. I'd never thought much about this scripture before, but started ruminating on it. Obviously, The Lord didn't mean that all men would come to believe on Him, because it's taught elsewhere that they wouldn't. What did He mean? I think He meant that if He were crucified, then all men would experience a "leading" from God, sufficient to bring them to a point of decision.

Then, some other scriptures started coming to me. In John, I believe, Jesus was described as the Light of the world that comes to all men. In romans, Paul talks about how all men are without excuse because there is enough about God written into the creation as to bring a man to a knowledge of God. Paul also talks about a law being written on mens hearts. Jesus talks about many being called, but few chosen. If the calling of the Spirit is irresistible, why are so many called but few actually chosen? What is the difference between being called and being chosen?

When I got home, I pulled out the laptop and started searching for the scripture I had originally read that told me that there was a predestination at work in the salvation process. It's in Romans 8, and says: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

This was a real AHA moment for me. I had originally read that to mean that He predestined some for salvation, but that's not what it says. I read it, now, as meaning that God knew who would accept Him, and predestined those he foreknew to be conformed to the image of His son. Perhaps he decreed that certain events would occur in our lives to further the sanctification process is my guess here, but it definitely doesn't mean that He predestined us for salvation.

The next verse is a little trickier, and I'm still working on understanding it:

"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

I suspect that this is simply referring to the process which is available to all, but I don't want to bend the verse to fit into my own theory, so I'm still asking for further understanding here. In light of other scripture, though, which indicates that salvation is available to all, and that God calls all to repentance, I can't see this verse as meaning that only some are called.

Anyway, I gotta tell you...once I realized that calvinism is wrong, it was like a burden was lifted off of me. It's a nice feeling to finally understand something you've always struggled with.

Larry

Hi Forgiven,

frustrating, ain't it? I always try to remember that some plant seeds, others water, but God gives the increase. Maybe some of these people you talked about will be fertile soil, and you may not even see the seed sprout, but at a critical time in the future, maybe some will remember all the love you showed them, how you seemed to have a certain joy in your life that is missing in theirs, and lo and behold that seed sprouts, becomes a tree, and bears fruit. One thing I always try to keep in mind is that faith comes by hearing the word, and the word never returns void.

I agree completely that most are blind, but would suggest that this is a willful blindness. In John, it says that men don't come to the light because they love darkness more than light. I can bear that out in my own life. I procrastinated coming to The Lord because of what I didn't want to give up. I loved the darkness. It was only when the darkness bit me that I started to consider the light. Even then, it took a while before, in desperation, I turned to Jesus.

I absolutely agree with you that the natural man cannot come to God unless led by The Spirit. We only differ in that I see the bible as teaching that all men are led to Christ, it's just that few accept the offer freely given to all.

Larry